Traditional Grip ( my hand hurts )

[Steve Holmes]

I still get minor pain there after extended playing periods. Vinnie's grip is a good example of controlled looseness obviously. It's almost deceptive because it appears that the stick is just sitting there but when it comes to the actual stroke there's a lot going on under the hood. It's loose in between strokes which I think is cool.
You may want to put the right stick down and just spend some time hitting the drum with your left hand and just observing what's happening. Try not to bury the stick into the drum, let it come back some. It is possible; albeit not in the Grub-Weck theory where the stick should be FLYING BACK FROM REBOUND OMG IT WANTS TO ANYWAY JUST LET IT it doesn't work like that in a real-world context in my opinion. There's just not enough time in bewteen strokes to allow the stick to fully rebound. But there is enough to where you can let it bounce back a hair, or just pull it back yourslef even. Just try to minimize the amount of shock your hand absorbs. It's like hitting a tree with a baseball bat and leaving it there. Ouch.

It may take some getting used to, but what's the alternative?

[Lee Collins]

Thanks for all the advice guys. Well, I tried it a bit on my gig tonight but rimshots were giving me shock pains under my thumb so I decided to play matched for rest of the gig. I really need to get proper lessons on trad grip and I'm gonna go see louie at some point about that and other general stuff. I must say though, I was focusing on 'loose' all night, as loose as I could with both hands at the point of dropping them, recorded myself and wow, such a difference in the way the beats were sitting.

[dum-dum-soc]

I have been playinhg for 16 years and switched o matched grip about 2 and a half years ago. I play a lot of funk, rock, and gospel so I needed my backbeat to be slammin. I started by analzling my matched style in my left hand. I wanted to achieve the same hit velocity and sound. My left hand stroke in matched was "really" loose with rim shots being done with only my pinkie realy gripping the stick with rest of the stick loosely in my hand. kind of like reversing the grip from front fingers to back fingers. (like holding a bat). I hope this is clear. When going to toms or doing intricate stuff I would make that grip more conventional.

Taking all this into consideration, I started my search for my trad grip. I liked how loose Vinnie has his and I was able to get my left hand really loose. The describsion of my grip is a loose "choping" motion with my left hand. When I strike it's almost like....... And I hate to say it but it's the best way to desribe it, a "jerking" stroke that ends in a chop. This requires a strong thumb muscle because most of the time, that is the only thing that is stopping the stick from flying.

I hope this helps .........

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 05, 2005 11:15 PM: Message edited by: dum-dum-soc ]</font>

[dum-dum-soc]

Sorry for the double post, but I was not finished.

[Suspiria]

Oh...the troubles you guys go through to play a cool-looking grip [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[got_a_matchgrip]

I think the Weck-Grube-Moeller method is more about allowing the stick to rebound of it's natural volition by just cradling the stick & using the first 2 fingers & thumb to just gently "guide" it...whatever heighth that may attain on whatever partic drum or cym surface [potentially diff feels here, obv; Donu was correct w regards here]. It is a great method when executed properly. I gets me NO pain...[ditto, Dazzo & CLW]

Do what i do...try practicing on the pad [& then eventually the sn, tom, cym, entire kit, etc] w this rebound method, but doing it in these several ways, slowly at first & building up speed of course...[these will isolate & master several diff ways; firstly, fingers, also thumb, then incorporating wrists, arms; AWA heighth & angle of hand]...

Practice standard rudiments & stickg patterns by holding the TG & by tapping w the fingers on top of the stick, palm at sort of a 90o angl to the head/surfacee, kind of as if to face DOWN, letting it natch rebound, but just controlling the bounce w the first 2 fingers. Then alternmate each of those fingers, one at a time...then, slowly turn the stick over as you consciously practice controlling the bounce [not forcing]...

Also over a period of time then practice slow to fast even sngls, dbls paras,flams, etc [rudiments] by allowing the stick to bounce in the fulcrum cradle, NOT touching the stick AT ALL w the 1st 2 fingers, & only using the thumb to touch the top of the stick to control that sweet spot for the nat bounce, similarly as VC does during the louder/higher stokes of that wicked sngl strk roll during Tweeked- MDF '00...firstly only using the thumb [this will have to be S-L-O-W...then, start incorporating a little hand motion/wrist into the mix, isolating each technique & concentrating/practicing it for a good time...naturally you'll gradually, eventually prob end up using a little more wrist or arm motion for this [don't let your arm tense up - concentrate on relaxing!]...

Because the stick will sometimes want to inch forward away/out from your grip employing the thumb only, you'll have to experiment w hand heighth AWA angle [w/out going too far in degrees either way]...

Then, alternating allowing the first 2 fingers to come back into the technq by just SLIGHTLY touching or "brushing" the top of the stick to help control it...& then both fingers ATST JUST EVER SO SLIGHTLY TO HELP CRADLE THE NAT BOUNCE...& then ALL points in between during practice when these are "down" enough...it will be rough going at first [esp for "beginners" w this method], but in time it will become a "2nd-nature feel."

The tips of the 1st 2 fingers AWA thumb should never be about anything other than CONTROLLING the bounce, & lightly cradling the stick to prevent slippage...NO TENSION OR FORCING SHOULD BE THERE. It takes time, practice, & patience [like anything else in drumming or music or anything else FTM], but in time it will come [prob after quite a few drops of the stick ;-]]...

VC, DC, & Weck are staunch proponents of this rebound method [whether VC espouses it verbally, "nomer-titlistically" or not], at least IMHO as it looks to me, by my countless hours of studying it.

Rhythmatist had some good points AW...
Practice the harsher BBs this way by keeping the shock value to a bare minimum or none...allow the stick to hit & naturally release w little or no tension in the grip whatsoevert. It simply takes analysis AWA pracice time...it's a "feel" technique thing.

Similarly, the MG side of things will also be greatly improved if one practices an extreme german, also French, & also points in between ["American"], employing this natch-rebound/bounce method AW. This way you're not limited to one technq & have mastered several so that your grip feels much better executed [AWA less slippage!], & you are not limited in any way by any "one" thing & can use all points of feel in your grip, not being caught off guard in the moment & flubbing a strk & reduce losing a stick!

[Also, i forgot to mention; during these processes, after a bit of mastery, raise & lower the heighth of your hand a bit off the drum in increments to find that sweet spot...]

Altho sometimes it is difficult to completely & accurately describe in words on a thread all the minute details of what the idea of a specific technq is, i hope you get the general idea, here...esp if you've already been playing or taught TG in the beginning or past [makes it a little easier to understand]...

This has helped my TG CONSIDERABLY...esp since i orig started w MG, but primarily started playing TG later <s>so that other studied drummers wouldn't be able to bag on me in an "academia-snobbery sense"</s> because it "looks cool"... [img]wink.gif[/img]

LMAO - DSOP, klemme, V, Dazz, susp... [img]wink.gif[/img]

So then, has this thread actually turned out to be a defense for MG [vs TG]?! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Don't worry...the TG vid will still stand as best comedic drumming clip of all time, regardless]... [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 05, 2005 01:52 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[got_a_matchgrip]

I might add that, when i spoke of the thumb-only thing in my above post, i should've also noted that when doing the softer/lower strokes, one will likely have to employ the practice of lightly touching the top of the stick w the 1st &/or 2nd finger, & getting the feel of this down...

It's always a good thing if one has a proper good teacher who knows his or her stuff who will help you analyze your grip & improve the "trouble spots."

I would say not to use TG on the gig unless really comf w it. Esp a heavier "backbeat" type gig.

[But OTOH, in the past i've also been known to have been sighted disregarding my own good council on an occasion or 3... [img]wink.gif[/img]
Oh, impatience & eager, reckless abandon...notice i didn't nec say "wreck-less"...& i also didn't say, "Weckl-less"]... ;-]

[Derek DeFields]

I agree with Dazz on the pain issue. I think the most important thing you can do is find someone with great hand technique in your area and take some lessons. You should never have any pain in your grip beyond the obvious wear spots when learning the grip itself. (I'm talking blisters and the like. Never muscle/bone pain)

[Lee Collins]

Here is 5 minutes of various songs from one of this weekends gigs. Corny old shit, function band, but hey. All sequenced tracks but with absolutely no clicks and some silent gaps, except the occasional clicked 4 beats count in. Ambiguous, cluttered, badly programmed drums on the tracks (in my headphones) to follow which doesn't give much clarity to the time. Vida loca at 2.32 has a 2 bar break with no time reference on the track at all, pretty much silence. I do my best to nail it, though it's a bit pushed through worrying about not getting it.
All in all, it's ok but I won't be happy till every stroke is sitting perfectly evenly of which there are many that aren't. This is matched grip. Maybe trad grip might ultimately improve things for me. Oh if you're wondering why the drums come in on carwash in a different place from the claps on the original, it's because the guys in the band programmed it the wrong way around. Btw, this is recorded with just my minidisc and a single stereo sony mic wrapped around a cymbal stand. Not bad sound considering [img]tongue.gif[/img]

http://jamesseph.phpwebhosting.com/DRuM's%20Stuff/snippets.mp3

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2005 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

[moosetication]

Watch the angle of your thumb. It should touch your first finger at around the first joint (assuming the joints are numbered from the tip of the finger). When I first started messing with trad, I had the thumb angled back more than that, touching the index finger behind the second joint, and I got the pain you describe.